for the business community's perspective on budget negotiations, we are joined by john engler of the business roundtable. you can call in with questions about hospital costs to elisabeth rosenthal of the new york times. ♪ good morning. it is tuesday, december 10, 20 13. despite most federal offices and ecb and closed due to the weather, congress is scheduled members session as scramble to wrap up legislation before adjourning for the year. the centerpiece of those efforts involve a budget deal that is expected to be released this week. in thathe key questions deal is whether congress will spend 26 billion dollars to expand the federal unemployment benefits. that is where we want to begin thisashington journal"

morning. are you in favor of extending benefits, where you come down in the debate that the benefits discourage the jobless from finding work? republicans can call at (202) 585-3881. democrats can call at (202) 585- 3880. independents can call at (202) 585-3882. we have a special line if you are unemployed and have thoughts on this matter. (202) 585-5883. with us onch up social media, twitter and facebook, or e-mail us at journal@c-span.org. good tuesday morning. this headline from "time," do not look now, the do-nothing congress is about to get stuff done. one of the pieces of legislation that story talks about is what is being called a modest budget deal. in that deal, as "the washington

times" points out, jobless checks hang in the balance. congressional democrats and republicans are fighting over whether to extend benefits set to expire at the end of the month, a top priority for president obama. at how tor at odds ay for the $26 billion that one-year extension would cost. a democrat said sunday that extending the benefits for more than six months does not have to be tied to a budget agreement that is under negotiation. that is the subject we are talking about with you this morning. "the washington times" points out that the president is pushing for an extension. he made of the subject of his

weekly address over the weekend. he said that the economic lifeline for millions of americans is now in jeopardy. "all because republicans in this congress have so far refused to extend it." this holiday season, the president said, let's give our fellow americans the help they need. that is the president in his weekly address over the weekend. at the same time last week, the president's economic council of advisors released a study giving some of the numbers on those unemployment benefits and how they would impact americans. that study found that nearly 24 million workers have received extended unemployment insurance benefits since 2008. recipients were a diverse group,

roughly half have completed some college, including 4.8 million with a bachelors degree or higher. including workers' families, nearly 69 million people have including 70d, million children. in 2012, on implement insurance benefits lifted 2.5 million people out of poverty. thoseestion is whether unemployment insurance benefits will be extended. taking your comments. our phone lines and our facebook page are open. receiving lots of comments. bowb writes in. "yes, we need to take care of our own right now." ly if a person "on is trying hard to find a job." "where is the money

going to come from?" facebook.comments on we will take your twitter comments as well. our phone lines are open. shane, a bring in "national journal" correspondent, to get the latest on the budget deal in congress. and you for joining us. guest: thank you for having me. host: what is the latest, when are we expecting to hear the details of the budget deal? guest: this morning, patty ,urray, the senate budget chair and paul ryan, the house budget chair, are said to me. they're hoping to put together the final touches of a deal. they are close. the real question is whether that deal they have struck, the two of them, will be able to

pass. over and over in the last year or two, any kind of agreement in probably -- paul ryan has the most sway of any individual member on house republicans. but there is some unrest about a package for next year, it will include a higher level of spending and a little bit higher fees and theough like. that is a thing to watch. once they come up with an agreement, canada get through the house? -- can a get through the house? host: it is expected to be a two-year deal? aest: they are trying to set topline figure of how much the government can spend for the next two years. under the current law called sequestration, across-the-board

nt, thist are blu gives agencies the ability to be more flexible. points.e some sticking a big question is what to do about unemployment insurance, which is going to expire at the end of this year. that has been a priority for democrats to put in. otherwise, there is not a vehicle to make sure it gets through congress. been opposingve now. it is not clear that that will get included. about $26 billion for the unemployment benefits extension. is there any word as to where that money would come from? come uphey have not with the specifics or have not released them. that is not an issue that is going to be included in this package. if it is not included, it will be extremely hard for democrats to get it through. three $6 billion is a hard never $26 billion is a

to offset. there are not many things that move through congress, if you do not jump on the train, it is not sure when the next one is coming. shane, thank you for getting up with us on "washington journal." we are talking about unemployment benefits. phone lines are open. we go to our line for democrats, bowie, maryland. also unemployed. thank you. i wanted to quickly say i am unemployed but i am an entrepreneur. i retrieved unemployment. it is unemployment insurance.

much like automobile insurance, you have an accident, it is to tide you over. i think it is important for those who have not been through that process to understand that the unemployment payment that you receive really is not enough for the things you live on. it does help, but at the same time it is not a benefit that will result in a person not seeking employment. we all have to think about things like benefits. we were working and contributing that we the country live in into the benefits that people will see. it is not like it is free money. periodk for it over and of time. host: from maryland. on a republican line, mike from cary, north carolina. caller: thank you very much.

i see this from both sides. i was unemployed during the recession and collected unemployment benefits -- unemployment insurance. my employer paid into that. my employer and the insurance that is funded for unemployment 426 weeks. anything beyond that, like the previous caller said, is a benefit. it is not being covered by anybody but the taxpayer. i come back to what my primary reason for calling is -- if we are going to do this, arguments can be made on both sides -- we have got to find a way to pay for it. we have got to balance our current needs with the needs of our children and grandchildren. if they pass this without finding a way to pay for it, which the guest that is going to be difficult, finding $26

billion is not going to happen. ,e have got to go with pay-go if we are going to spend money, we have got to pay for it. aid, our totaln foreign aid to other countries is between $40 billion and $50 billion a year. it is not a heck of a lot of money. from north carolina this morning. the topic was comments by rand news on sunday, whether unemployment insurance discouraged workers. [video clip] i do support unemployment benefits for the 26 weeks that they are paid for. beyond that, you do a disservice. there was a study that came out a few months ago saying if you have a worker that has been

unemployed for four weeks and 19 99 ways, which would you hire? ould hire% said they were the person for four weeks. to becomelowing them part of a potentially unemployed group. disservice. i do not doubt the president's motives, black unemployment in america is double white unemployment. a lot of african-americans voted for him, his policies do not work. theow do you persuade african-american voter you are not going to spend more are going money, you to vote to let the unemployment benefits last. how do you persuade that voter this is good for them? economic stimulus plan for detroit would leave over $1 billion in detroit's economy.

there is no other plan on the table and there is not going to be a grand bailout through congress other than my plan. that couldnly one pass over $1 billion would be left in detroit. i am talking about restoring voting rights and school choice. there is a lot to offer in the republican message. there is only upside potential for voters in detroit and all the big cities. host: senator rand paul's comments generating headlines yesterday. atlanticose from "the ," rand paul could not be more wrong about unemployment insurance. it is not keeping people from taking work, it is keeping people from giving up looking for it and giving the economy a boost. you can read that piece by matthew o'brien. another piece, paul krugman's latest.

solution offered by republicans for ending long-term unemployment is to slash benefits, this will reduce consumer spending and make the situation worse. a picture of paul krugman and a quote from his story. you can read this online and in several different papers. we are taking your calls on this subject. john from watertown, new york on our line for independents. caller: good morning. i have got two comments. the first one, i have seen stories where people are getting more in unemployment benefits than they would be getting if they were in the marketplace working. with stories like that it makes me hesitant to support any extension of long-term unemployment. host: as an incentive to stay out of the workforce?

caller: exactly. if i am going to sit at home and collect more money than i would if i was working, i am just going to sit home and do nothing. hear all these people complaining about how this congress is on the least productive in history. is not a bad thing to sit back and do nothing. look at the stimulus that was passed by the democrats. back in the first term of the president. we spent billions of dollars. we were told unemployment would be down to 5%. if we had done nothing, would we be in a different position? our debt would be lower. host: john from new york. tweets coming in.

if you want to join the conversation. in,. democrats are bragging and then they want to extend benefits. mike says they should be extended. it kept me from starting. ok, is the economy working or not? why do we need to stand unemployment. your commentsing and questions all morning on "washington journal" for the next half hour or so. lidia is next from maryland on our line for democrats. unemployment benefits should be extended. one of the requirements of receiving i'm limit benefits is that you have worked. -- receiving unemployment

benefits is that you have work. you have to be actively looking for work. my daughter-in-law has put in over 100 resumes and has had three interviews. she finds that each stop she has applied for has at least 800 other people applying for the same job. you have toweeks, supply the unemployment people with the name of businesses, telephone numbers, places where you have applied for a job. it is not free money. have short memories. 16 days of government shutdown 5 billion. they have forgotten that. they have not done anything to help the president. proposed bill he has they are against. they are not doing anything to improve the economy. last week, walmart opened in the district, 560 jobs were

advertised, 23,000 people showed up to apply for 560 jobs. there are no jobs. upper marlboro, maryland. approximately 1.3 million extendedre receiving unemployment insurance benefits and they are set to lose them at the end of the year if congress does not act. three point 6 million additional people will lose access to benefits beyond 26 weeks by the end of 2014. those according to a report released last week by the president's council of economic advisers. the was the topic of editorial in today's "wall street journal." employedep workers on is the headline. another extension will not create more jobs says the editorial board of "the wall street journal."

it ends saying the current system raises payroll taxes on employers even as 20 million americans are still unemployed or underemployed. none of this will help the economy create more jobs. say's "walll and street journal." we want to hear your thoughts. we have a special line for folks who are unemployed, (202) 585- 5883. otherwise we have lines for republicans, democrats, and independents. on the independent line from memphis. yeah.:

wonder is the world ready for jesus to show up? host: explain. caller: our money says "in god we trust," a cross or a church or anything, but i see a pyramid with a dollar bill on the top -- with an eyeball on the top of that. i wonder who is watching over us. host: ok, tyrol from missouri. we ought to extend unemployment benefits for the unemployed we can start by cutting foreign aid to the apartheid state israel. that would be a good start. we can look into this war on iraq that has cost $1 trillion. brought on by george bush and congress.

they are a do-nothing congress. they that for killing people. theyamericans need help, are nowhere to be found, host: you are of the mindset that foreign money is a place to find money to fund this extension? yes, especially to the apartheid state of israel. they are building walls with my tax dollars. why would i want to send money from israel? -- to israel? host: the benefits extension would be part of a budget deal. the deal is being worked out on capitol hill. the latest mcclatchy-marist poll 68% of on that deal -- americans do not think a deal will be reached before the deadline. 55% say reducing pay and benefits to federal workers is

acceptable. say cuts to obamacare would be an accessible way to avoid increasing taxes and fees. 43% say cuts to defense spending would be acceptable. those are some numbers from the latest marist-mcclatchy poll .onducted december 3 - 5 we are talking about the extension of unemployment benefits. from baltimore on our line for republicans. feel that it is time to end the unemployment benefits. they have not worked, they are not going to work. it is no one's fault if there are no jobs available. they go out and look for work, but if you do not have the skills and the education, employers are not hiring you.

i feel sorry for anyone over age 50, they will have a tougher time. you cannot continue to hand money out. the obama administration has won a number of events over the short period of time he has been in office. loses, hishe wins he plans are not working. time for a does of reality. time to change the way we do things or we will watch this country fall. host: that is anthony. why eventes in, consider extending unemployment benefits other than to keep america from ever recovering? we will keep talking about this issue on this first 45 minutes of "washington journal." some of the other headlines from capitol hill. this according to "the washington times," senate approves a 10 year extension of the plastic gun ban.

ban on undetectable plastic guns for 10 years hours before the act was scheduled to expire. advocates lamented it did not go far enough and vowed to push forward. "washington times," just below that, lawmakers in a hurry military budget. this is a topic we will get into it with john garamendi, a democrat from california from the armed services committee. lawmakers trying to rush the 2014 defense policy bill through congress in less than a week to keep up a decade-long streak of passing to keep these of legislation that covers defense spending and military pay. we will talk about that with john garamendi, next on "washington journal." news, the federal government sold off its gm shares and is out of the car

business. this is from "usa today." u.s. taxpayer is no longer of any automaker -- any of automaker general motors. sale closes the books on the $49.5 billion bailout and restructuring of gm in 2009 with a taxpayer loss of about $10.5 billion. a study by the center for research says the rescue of gm saved jobs and preserve tax revenue. be talking about that as well with one of our later guests on "washington journal," former governor of michigan. or 20e next 15 minutes minutes, we have this question. should unemployment benefits be extended in the budget negotiations going on right now in congress?

a from tennessee on our line for independents. -- i am sorry, data from missouri on our democrat line. caller: good morning. that the taxd tables are not level enough. out,hould they be level corporations could be considered people, why don't they pay as much in taxes as i do? be if they do, we ought to able to cover this unemployment .enefits i agree with the lady who spoke earlier. if congress can shut down the government and throw away $25 billion, why can't they look out for the people in america, too? why is this so one-sided? host: thank you for the call.

we have a line for those who are employed. that line,ting on a republican from texas. caller: hello, thank you. i have a couple things to say. one is, they are going to take $16 billion from jpmorgan. fault is it that they bought countrywide to help the country? they are going to distribute who would the people support obama's causes instead of going anywhere into actual government. enough to takean care of a significant amount of unemployment for the next few weeks.

have wasted several trillion dollars in the last few years. they are looking at taking away things like pensions from the military, a terrible idea. there are better places to deal with money. if you have someone like myself who has been employed too much and who did not even get to finish or take the last extension because, allegedly, employment got better and congress did not have to go for it. -- to vote for it. i would just like the last extension they told me i would get and then they turned around ad nine i -- and denied it year ago. i have borrowed a lot of money. i did not have jobs in the last year. has beensomebody who on unemployment insurance, do you have a reaction to senator

rand paul's statements on sunday in which he said unemployment folks fromiscourages finding a job? caller: i like rand paul and i agree with a lot of what he says. it may be true for a lot of people. it is not across the board. it is painting with a wide brush. is a connection there. but you have to consider certain things. i am 61 years old. i work oil makers and things like that. do you think my best option in november and december when jobs are local -- they have jobs that are held back. do you think my best option is to compete with 22-year-olds for or somewhere?t

trying to help out with stocking of efforta little bit to help the retail during christmas. or do you think it is my best effort to try to get a job doing what is going to make my family between $30,000 and $60,000 a year? this should be considered by some. we do not all do the same things . betweeneld a time frame november and january where --loyees were our business they are hiring very few. follow aossible to

lottery sticker where i am getting my gas. it is possible for me to get a job at this time of year between now and january and between now and february. they do not hire until after the first of the year. host: glenn from beaumont, texas. several local papers talk about how the potential loss of the jobless benefits are impacting local economies. vegas journalas review." nevadans would lose benefits if they are not extended. "thesame topic taken up by

buffalo news." people stand to lose their extended unemployment benefits late this month unless congress acats to renew the program. those stories get a number from the council of economic advisers report from the white house, which breaks down those who would be impacted by states. cal from carlisle, pennsylvania. people would be impacted if jobless benefits are not extended. good morning to you, cal. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. with senator paul that

after 26 weeks of unemployment and i think it has been extended enough. i just came out of the united kingdom. i know with the british government does with their people. i have a number of family members. as long as you feed you employment money, they are not going back to work. ago.ne mentioned while it was better to be on unemployment than to get minimum wage. i think the unemployment needs to be cut off. twitter thatays on there is no mention of unemployment insurance in the enumerated powers. one other story this morning.

a former clinton aide is expected to join obama at the white house as an aid. president obama attending funeral services and a celebration of the life of nelson mandela in south africa today. "the new appearing in york times."

host: he is expected to help on matters of health care law and executive action. back to the phones. john on our line for democrats. thank you for calling the "washington journal." caller: i am single, no dependents. it feels good to contribute. there are a lot of people not contributing. what is the tax base? whatever a millionaire makes now. about 50% of my gross income on unemployment.

that is not a living wage. i amon as i am laid off, hitting the bricks looking for a new job. i like what i do. a lot of people live in urban areas and nobody taught them how to work. the jobs are not there. out of thed walk factory and a few days later he would have a job. host: what do you think the government can do to bring back hope to teach them how to get jobs again? churches andthe leaders that need to do that. when i was going on construction sites, people were happy to show up. they were appreciated when they showed up.

there were not threatened and terrorized. people are now afraid to speak up for their own rights. employment in the united states is a lot like farming. cattle only fit so much in a pasture. the people at the top are the ones that feed them. host: we also have a line set up for those who are unemployed. mark is waiting from new jersey on that line. good morning to you. caller: i invested my own saved overt i had many years while i was working. 1990's, afterarly working for 18 years, i invested tens of thousands of dollars

into the stem field. inicked up my degree computer programming, software engineering, as well as graphic design and project managing. pointis the first bullet that many callers talk about. people should become more skilled. including our brilliant leaders in congress. i have great skills. host: how long have you been out of work? been unemployedve for five years. i am soon to lose my condo. hundreds inded by this condo association, people

on viasa who have been brought over here by our leaders in congress who have disdain for the u.s. citizen, who feel they do not have the skills to do the job. here is a person about to lose his home surrounded by hundreds of people on these -- viasa. mark describing his situation in new jersey. president obama is in south africa attending services for nelson mandela. some headlines on that. stadium hi at a soccer in johannesburg, where the services would take place. president obama spoke an hour ago. i want to play you a little bit

of what he said. [video clip] >> i have fought against white domination and black domination. i cherish the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony. it is an ideal which i hope to live for and to achieve. but it is an ideal for which i am prepared to die. [che mandela taught us the power of action and also the power of ideals. the importance of reason and argument, the need to study who you agree with but those who you do not agree with. he understood that ideas cannot

be contained by prison walls, extinguished by a sniper's bullet. he turned it into an indictment of apartheid because of his passion and because of his training as an advocate. he used decades of prison to sharpen his arguments and to spread his thirst for knowledge for others in the movement. theearned the language and customs of his oppressive so that he might better convey to them how their own freedom depends upon his. [cheers] host: that was president obama speaking about an hour ago at the services that are being called the largest gathering of dignities since pope john paul ii' s funeral. raul castro is currently

speaking as he offers his remarks. of south african department international relations posted more than 80 countries that have sent delegations to the funeral. there are some notable exceptions. the dalaiama -- lama has been unable to obtain visas to south africa in the past. an important economic partner. the soccer stadium is the one time segregated township where protests and the killing of protesters hasten the upper against apartheid at a prison. fromt to show you a tweet

"the wall street journal" this morning. shaking hands with president obama. that is a tweet that came out this morning. we have a few minutes left to talk about unemployment benefits. span2ll take you over to c- to show the memorial for nelson mandela. we the next five minutes, will be talking about unemployment benefits. laurel, maryland. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. that is the only place we can state our opinion. efficiency, efficiency,

efficiency. there is so much waste in every part of the government. it doesn't matter what it is. if they take those, it is going to be surplus in the budget. it is not going to be deficit. there is no way for me to accept handout. you looke unemployed, for work. if they pay you less, take the less. it is better than taking the handout. some of the callers mentioned israel. and the jewish people hate that. that is the government of israel. taking that and putting that in their pocket. host: some of the money should be spent here at home to extend

unemployment insurance benefits. do you think that is a good route to go? caller: that is a copout. somed states has to have helping hand. it doesn't has to go all to israel. it has to go somewhere to the people. they need, too. if they go to a welfare department, state department, the defense department, you will see that these people are charging $100 for a meal which costs $.50, and nobody is overseeing it. host: one last tweet from mark stone.

that is going to do is for first 45 minutes. up next, john garamendi joins us to talk about the deal that was announced yesterday. and later, john engler will join us to discuss congressional gridlock and how it is impacting the economy. we will be right back. >> is a rare constant if you look at congress in 1901. from working-ame class backgrounds. the average member of congress spent less than 2% doing service

industry jobs. this is one thing that has not changed. lots of different aspects have changed. broadcast television, cable news, the decline of unions. one of the constants during the last 100 years is that working- class people are not getting elected to political office. >> doesn't matter there is a disparity between most elected officials and the citizens they represent? sunday night at 9:00. levinary, mark op will take your questions on c- span2. we want to know what your favorite works were in 2013.

join other readers to discuss the notable books published this year. this is the oldest building in plains. the hustle and bustle of the campaign. you had tables and phones going off and letters and ms. rosalynn was here. this is where rosalynn carter helped organize the peanut brigade. that wasn't offshoot of the high neighbor campaign used during the run for governor. it was a way using volunteers going door to door and spreading the word. it was so effective it helps them get elected to the presidency. program on first

lady rosalynn carter. we start our encore presentations on monday with it if roosevelt to grace coolidge. >> "washington journal" continues. expected touse is adjourn for the rest of the year on friday. looking for agreement on a new budget deal. joining us is congressmen john garamendi from california. you are a member of the armed services committee. we talked about the deal that was announced yesterday. what is your take? >> we do not have a choice. we have soldiers in the field. we cannot dither. we have to get this done.

the essential pieces are there. host: some stats on that legislation. it includes more than $80 million for operations in afghanistan and elsewhere. loosening some of the restrictions on transferring prisoners. you said it does not include some things. guest: some of the things left in our troublesome for me. $80 million for afghanistan? i have some questions about some of the priorities. the number of1/3 soldiers that we are spending as much money or a little bit more. detailse the kinds of

we needed to get into in this bill. what is left out of it -- some of the details of how we use the money that has been available. a huge program dealing with acquisition of various types of weapons systems. not clear if the final bill will have the language we worked on so long and hard in the committee. host: can you talk about how it impacts the air force in your district in california? guest: deal is intelligence surveillance recognizance. thee are the drones -- not drones that are active sending hellfire missiles into various places but watching what is going on around the world.

continuing questions about some of the pieces of weapons. travis air force base. there.is how you get you have the big c-17's. there is talk whether one of the key pieces of equipment, the big aerial tankers, whether they will be disposed of or not. sequestration has really hit the bases hard. host: senator levin yesterday talked a little bit about this in an announcing the deal that came together. here is a bit of what he had to say. [video clip] adjournouse is going to on friday. there is no way to get a defense

bill passed. there is no way we can bring back the bill that was on the senate floor. consider amendments. pass a bill. go to conference with the house. adaptedonference report by the house of representatives before friday. under the circumstances the only way that we will be able to pass the defense bill is by reaching agreement with our house counterparts on a bill that has a chance of getting past without amendment in both houses. that is the best hope that we have. it has happened a couple times before. it is not the way we desire to legislate. we would have much more than a week to offer amendments. that is not the world we now

live in. we have troops in harms way. all these other provisions that are critical for security. authorities will expire. and: that was senator levin the senate talking about the deal that was announced yesterday. we are joined by congressman john garamendi, a member of the house armed services committee. saw this deal as a place to push for new sanctions on iran. do you think that is the place it should have been or will we see sanctions through another route? guest: at this point it is not a wise thing to add to the sanctions. keep that in reserve.

sander levin laid out the problem. they wanted to use a must pass piece of legislation. on put all kinds of riders it to get around that. we are playing what is called ping-pong. we pass a bill over to the senate. we leave. "hmm. now what do we do"? there are things in this bill that are essential. variousay, pay for the personnel and the like. there are things in this bill i would like to see in the house would like to see in it but are not because the senate did not have a chance to work those out in a conference committee. host: we mentioned the irran

nuclear deal -- iran nuclear deal. the witnesses include john kerry. you can see that live at 1:00 p.m. on c-span3. you can share your comments using #c-span chat and also on facebook. we have congressman john garamendi for the next 35 minutes or so. he is taking your calls and questions. our phone lines are open. we will start with charlie on our line for republicans. you are on with congressman garamendi. caller: hello. i have had the pleasure of meeting you before. i have a question as to whether effortthe court ethanol

with military and putting a lot of renewables and are military-- energy, if that issue is going to be taken up before the end of the year. guest: the ethanol issue is an issue of the epa and the regulation. i do not believe we will see congress dealing with that unless somebody finds a way to tack it on to one of the must pass bills. the military has always been one of the first implementers of new ideas of doing things. with onea conversation the admirals talk about using renewable fuels. he said we used to use rowboats and sailboats and then steam and by wood and coal and nuclear.

we always look for something new to fuel our fleets and not depend upon a country providing us with oil. the military is always looking for new ways to do things. and looking at ways to provide energy in far out places. have aanistan, you don't gas station nearby? what are you going to do? they are very innovative. new opportunities for manufacturing in america. host: you are also a member of the agricultural committee. that farm bill is being watched before the end of the year. guest: i talked to standard or nightnator stepanov last

night.ator stepanov last she is a little perplexed that the house is leaving on friday. that he gives her little time to get it done. we are ready to do this. some of the commodity groups have been at war with each other. dramatic is a departure from the past. forward with plenty of subsidies. it is a big change and an important one. host: what did you think will happen with the food stamp program? guest: there will be a small cut. $40house passed a bill, billion over the life of a bill. that is a huge cut.

there will be a small cut. the way to reduce food stamps is to put people back to work. then people can't afford to buy bo -- then people can afford to buy food. end the uncertainty here. get our work done so the businesses know what to expect. host: we are talking with john garamendi, democratic congressman from california. represents california's third district. johnny is next from woodbridge, virginia. good morning. i wonder what is wrong with how much money they are spending in afghanistan. halliburton is the problem. as long as they are there, the

money is going to pull in. x vice president cheney was collecting money before, during, and after, and he still is collecting money from the government. host: did you have a question for the congressman? doesn't saybody something about the work habits of congress. congress wants people to find jobs 20 hours a week. congress doesn't work 10 hours a month. guest: we work at least 10 hours a month. the amount of work in congress has been very slim. the hours as not been close to elosi period.

the amount of fraud and waste is extraordinary. $80 billion for what? 1/3 the number of troops? what are we spending all that money on? it is the most corrupt nation in the world. the president of afghanistan is umbing hisus.th i am concerned about this. the afghan people had a major conference on the continuation of the american presence in afghanistan. we have yet to hold a hearing on the same issue in the house of representatives. the american people should be aware of what is being negotiated with afghanistan and

the commitment the united states is making to continue military and quasi-military actions in afghanistan. host: how long do you think that commitment should last? guest: i think we should have been out of their a while ago. host: marianne, good morning. caller: hi, congressman garamendi. budget talking about the and everything for the defense department. i was wondering that when the americans died a couple of months ago and the shutdown occurred, why did the president signed an executive order so the fisher house did not step in? i think you are treating the air

thinks, navy, marines, i they have been very disrespect of. the democrats have been disrespect if of the people that fought so hard for this country. the president should have signed the executive order. he did nothing. guest: i am not sure he could do anything. there was no authorization to spend money in many different areas. i am not sure the way in which the money would be available on the specific issue that you had. the president does not have any authority to spend money unless congress appropriates that money. the government shutdown was not caused by the president but by the recalcitrance of some members of congress to deal with reality. the republicans in the house wanted to terminate the

affordable health care act. the democrats and the president said no. eventually they got down to something very simple and the appropriations were made, extended until january 15. are we going to have another shutdown or not? we have to start with a budget as a framework for how much money that has been spent. days of work four before friday. so we will see. we could be headed for another shutdown. that could be tragic. folks on twitter have taken on this subject of bills. of year rush on this from monica.

guest: the answer is clearly yes. we could. congress does not act much difference than most of us did when we were in high school and college. the final exam comes, and you cram. host: congress is cramming right now? guest: should be. we are kind of like human nature. you wait until there is a deadline. you don't have more time to talk. we have to make these decisions. concernst deadline some people. danny writes in. the oversight of some of these bills. guest: a terrible problem. it has been going on forever. it is like human nature.

people do not want to make a decision until the have to. they are looking to get the advantage. and so time goes by and pretty soon the deadline is there and you have to make a decision. they have not had the time to be reviewed the public and sometimes by members of congress. virginia.stine from caller: good morning, commerce man. congressman. i am looking at this unemployment and ending food stamps and these sorts of things. you just mentioned it is the end of the year and people

start cramming to get things done. infrastructure investment would help people who are getting kicked off of food stamps and potentially losing unemployment insurance. i have worked with people who got hit with unemployment and just needed mentoring and help and assessing their skills. maybe they don't have the skills any more because of technology. it is so empowering for people beown their own life and not dependent on these resources. there is work to be done out there. had a jobt friday i fair and what we call a boot camp of jobs. up how50 people showed

to write a resume and how to analyze their own skill sets. line just toood in talk to 50 employers. they wanted to go to work. they were willing to stand in 35 degree weather to have a chance to get a job. many people did get a job, perhaps 50 people at that job fair. it was the most satisfying and saddest day talking to people in the line. they wanted a job. one fellow left the army, an army ranger. hearts.had four purple

"waht did you do?" i think he got a job that day. he was delighted. divorcees getting out there getting a job. we have to get this economy going by building the foundation for economic growth. we are working on the water resource reform act. that is about building the water systems of this nation, the levees to protect us from floods, the other things that go into the water systems that we have. that also is in the final stages of negotiations. hopefully we will get it done early next year. host: one transition to talk about, the affordable care act. something viewers are very interested in.

kathleen sebelius expected to be back on capitol hill this week for another hearing on the affordable care act. i want to go back to last month. you were one of three night democrats who joined republicans enjoying for the measure that would allow insurers to sell existing plans through 2014. this was a piece of legislation that nancy pelosi said weakens the affordable care act. guest: there were three things going on that day and the day before. the president said we have to extend these policies. the democrats put a bill on the floor and every democrat voted to extend the policies. people that do not have a policy policy outside of the exchange. there was a problem.

the real problem was to get the exchange working. last night, they are moving quickly and we have seen some significant improvements in the national exchange. very difficult to put that in place. i do not think the public realize. the governors did not want the affordable care act to work. california is working. our daughter went online to get a policy. she said it was easier than getting an airline ticket. washington worked very well. took me half an hour to sign up. host: you know this subject very well. that if you think

liked your health care plan, you would be able to keep it? did you think he would be able to keep that promise? guest: i think there is a great aboutf misunderstanding the nature of the promise and about the way insurance works. it is not like a life insurance policy. it is one year. at the end of every year, each insurance policy is canceled and usually renewed with changes. you have an annual renewal of every policy. most americans have been able to buy insurance. but people that had insurance every year, they go through this period in the fall of renewing

their insurance policy. they do not know their policy has been changed. their former policy was canceled and a new policy put in place. there was a difference this year. we are in a political environment. it becomes a big little thing. we have the exchanges all across america, some working well, some not so well. people can be able to shop for insurance. they have not been able to do that before. if you are working in a company, the employer to that shopping for you. you can now shop for insurance. you can compare coverages and who is providing the doctor and hospital.

never before was that possible. host: a lot of questions about democrats can run on the affordable care act in 2014. republicans say they want to target your district. guest: i have been in support of health care reform for 35 years. the affordable care act is working across this nation. it is working in california very well. next year, i think the republicans are going to run away from the affordable care act because it is working. it will get that are as time goes on. i will bet you will see the republicans find a different issue next fall. host: jason is up next from new york on the line for independents. caller: good morning.

i have two questions. why doesn't congress or the house passed a bill that puts military pay to make sure the military gets paid in case of a shutdown? basically like a wall. v.a. isn't seem the having issues paying back vets. occured, shutdown of my sister was supposed to be paid. her review was pushed back to 2016. ofst: you just stated two hundreds of different problems because of the shutdown. i know that most every democrat and republican in congress was putting pressure to get those

backlogs down, and they are making good progress. they shut down for two weeks. the backlog was increased. i am sorry to hear your sister has suffered as a result of the shutdown. with regard to the military pay, budget are almost always year- to-year. there was a special piece of legislation so the military pay would go on. similar pieces of legislation bit my bit did go forward to continue the operations of some of the critical areas. there was no need for a shutdown. it was all about the republicans trying to stop the affordable health care act. they were not going to succeed.

they suffered some political trouble as a result of the shutdown. they deserved it. not necessary and not wise. host: will is up next from pennsylvania. caller: thank you for your time. i appreciate it. folks ining a lot of the democratic party using the term shutdown in january. the democratic party will score some points on using the term government shutdown and trying to gain political points on it. i am suspect. everyone is disgusted with what is happening in washington, d.c. the democratic party is looking for political points.

guest: we certainly had a shutdown and i think we know who was responsible for the shutdown. there is no democrat that wants a shut down. it is a very serious problem to shut down the government. we do not want it. period. we are up against the timeclock. most all government services one out on january 15. could we have a shutdown? yes, we could. the issue seems to be over the budget itself, over how much money is going to be spent. right now we do not have a budget in place that tells us the framework for the expenditures of the government. maybe that will get done this week. there are some serious issues about what that budget would

look like. these are profoundly important issues, issues about aemployment insurance, discussion on c-span before i arrived. line tryingtood in 100 jobserhaps 50 to they'll were available in fairfield, california. what are they going to do? wear a they going to get the money to buy their foods, take care of the children? the unemployment insurance is a very big issue for those people that stood in line trying to get a job, and their millions more across the nation in a similar situation. host: we are talking with california democrat john garamendi, a former lieutenant governor for the state of

rancheria, a current and a former insurance commissioner for california. guest: we were both eagle scouts. we have this from wild and wonderful. guest: yes. and many of the states have important consumer protection laws. they deal with the financial that some pay a claim day in the future and provide mechanisms for prompt and fair payment of claims. not every state does. laws.tates have weeak and so a company that is

operating in one of the states with weak consumer protection into aelling insurance state like california is a real, serious consumer problem. i dealt with this for many years. they do not have the kind of financial wherewithal to pay a claim or a desire to do so. we are talking about consumer protection here. we are seeing a change taking place. seehe process, we will national companies selling products nationwide, and we are probably --definitely seeing that in those 34 states in which there is a national exchange. those policies will be similar tothat continues to remain

be the responsibilities of the individual states. there is a time for adjustment but that is the fundamental reason. host: we have about five or 10 minutes with congressman garamendi. sam is up next. good morning. caller: getting back to the issue of getting work done on time. budget are supposed to be done by october 1. there is a rule, amendment that says you cannot change your pay even if you wanted to during the same congress. would you support a bill that 1% penaltyour own and their own income taxes for every week after october 1 to

and all the things you are doing on october 1. i get penalized in college if i turn in something late. i do think it would be good for you to take a penalty if you do not get your work done on time. guest: very interesting concept. there have been various mechanisms to get a budget and on-time. the constitution prevents the kind of withholding or no pay at all during the term of office. in california, the constitution was amended. paid if thewere not time. was not on guess what happened -- they got

them done on time. previously there would be months before they were done and there was a shutdown similar to what you saw in the united states. would it work? penalties work. no doubt about it. 1%? probably not enough for motivation. host: you were the majority leader. guest: i have had a wonderful journey. host: next up on our line for independents, don. good morning. caller: i have so many different questions to ask. i think you people work about 23 weeks out of the years. i think you should work at least 40. we have been talking about the tax code for so long. i think it should be a flat tax.

campaign finance reform -- i think this country needs that. to a flath regard tax, we must reform the tax code. we are letting wealthy people get off the hook by sending the money overseas. we saw a presidential candidate do that in the last election. that is not fair. somebody making several million dollars a year would be paying the same rate as somebody that is digging a ditch for $10 an hour. that is not fair. clearly we need to simplify the loopholeso end the that allow corporations -- some

corporations pay no tax at all. that is wrong. individuals can avoid taxes with loopholes and schemes. all of that should end. part of the responsibility is to help pay for the nation in a fair and appropriate way. we have a huge public campaign finance reform. we have secret money in terms of hundreds of billions of dollars. it is clearly corrupting the process. the supreme court's decision made it difficult to pass any ind of legislation except t so that disclosure people know what to expect. the internal revenue service is looking at it regulation that is

being abused and this is the 501c4 regulation. hide large used to sums of money for political purposes. that is extraordinary important. campaigns arecal not social welfare purposes. anthony is up next. caller: good morning. congratulations. regarding the affordable care act. policies were not

adequate policies. i had a policy. it was canceled. i realize they are redone every year. i have a small business. i am looking at increases next year. 56% going on. place.re plans in guest: this is one of the questions that is out there. that is part of the reason i voted for all three of those -- for the democrat as well as the republican raposo on the floor. --the republican proposal on the floor. one of the problems we had in the health care system is there

are two parts of the health care system. one part is the way in which refinance it.side. the other is in the way that we provide the services. these are distinct things that are connected with money. the insurance policies themselves need to be more uniform. in doing so, you illuminate the administrative costs that can be up to one third of the total cost of health care. that is turned up in a administrative costs. there are five standard policies across the nation and it is a good idea. people are caught up in the transition. you may, very well, even though you are paying better -- more, may have a policy that pays better money. maybe not. lan -- plan. the

>> we have a couple minutes left. allen is up on pennsylvania on our line for pennsylvania. . caller: good morning. -- for doing being this this morning. i would like to ask that you coburn's back dr. in the black comments that he had their. -- there. -- it shows where the cuts can be done. we need to look at what can be done. me, if you -- excuse look at back in the black, it saves $9 trillion.

it is very specific and i have gone through it. i would ask that you consider this. est: we need to consider every idea to reform the health care system. the affordable care act has exchanges, with all the controversy that we are seeing with the national and state also has, but it important reforms in the way that medical practices done across the nation. one of them has had a profound effect. hospitals have not paid for readmissions. guess what, they say they are not going to get paid. we need to make sure that there are no hospital infections. we have seen hospitals across the nation pay attention to cleanliness and hygiene. that is just one example of the many different pieces that are in the affordable care act that have a profound and positive

the cost ofducing health care. att: have you taken a look the proposals and are there any you agree with? my stepdaughter be watching this and it better be on my desk when i get to my office. -- my staff better be watching this and it better be on my desk when i get my office. i think that it has to do with the back-and-forth and the way in which congress operates. for the first time in five years, we passed a budget. thever, on the house side, house republicans refused to go to conference until this last month. therefore, there was no budget. you have a set of -- of the senate version and a house version. unity conference.

-- you need a conference. we are now in a conference, seven months late. nonetheless, we are in a conference. will it get done? we have real different views about what the united states government ought to be doing and that is the conflict that has led to these many years of no budget and without a budget, it is difficult to decide the priorities for this nation. believe, theto, i slowdown in our economy and the uncertainty about how much money we will spend on transportation, education, and the military. all of these things the government does. that,t the knowledge of businesses do not know what to expect and that is a significant break on the american economy. frankly, we need to get past that need certainty. the public needs certainty. the final exam is coming again. january 15 is another final exam. we have to meet that deadline,

not just with budget and appropriations, but with the water resources development act and the defense programs. the farm bills, on and on. we have work to do it has to get done. host: engler will join us to discuss congressional gridlock and how it will impact the economy. elisabeth rosenthal of the new york times joins us to discuss her recent piece on escalating hospital bills. but first, a news update from c- span radio. >> the nobel peace prize was accepted earlier today by the direct -- i the director for the organization on the prohibition of chemical weapons. the nobel committee chairman said that the anonymous inspectors from the opcw do an

extremely important and difficult job. to start the speech, he paid tribute to nelson mandela, who share they nobel peace prize .w.h fw dick clark -- f declerk. president obama should chance with raul castro. -- shook hands with growl castro during the meeting of reconciliation. with thehands brazilian president, who is classed with president obama over nsa spying. with mr.ial service mandell is about to wrap up. -- mr. mandela is about to wrap up. afterwards, addresses by several world leaders and you will be able to hear this on our website.

president obama is in south africa. joe biden is hosting an event at the white house today. expectedpresident is to announce more funding for mental health services. is the first anniversary of the newtown connecticut -- newtown, connecticut school shooting. allow moneyuse will to become available. those are some of the latest headlines on c-span radio. >> c-span. we bring public affairs event from washington and directly to you. would put you in the room at congressional hearings and white house events. c-span, created by the cable tv industry 34 years ago and funded by your local cattle -- cable satellite provider. you can now watch us in hd.

>> washington journal continues. host: for a look at how the business community is reacting to the ongoing budget negotiations, we turn to john engler. let's start with the budget conference unexpected to release some sort of modest audit deal this week. what are you expecting? guest: we are stuck in congress to do its work. let's get the job done. let's -- one thing that the business. community is looking for, washington ought to be able to get a budget done, although it is late already. we are all affecting some sort of -- $7.4 trillion in annual revenues, and more than 60 million employees.

when this budget conference first pick off, what with a hoping for -- kicked off, what were they hoping for? get seriesthat we would as a nation with dealing with long-term fiscal problems and when not one year or two years but 10, 20, 30 years ahead, we have structural, financial problems we are going to have to work with. we have deficits that are not sustainable even the commitments we have given to the demo programs. being from michigan, i've gotten to watch what is happened in detroit over the number of years. do not want to detroit to be , weated in other states have seen what has happened in greece, and other states over there. we need to paste up to -- face

up to our problems. it is the idea of a grand bargain, is that something that is now possible in the foreseeable future? there's no better time to do that then when you have a president who is in the in the seeminglym, it would be the right time where everybody participates. we need to make adult decisions about the future. the importance of a deal right now, of a small bird of of a modest compromise, is that we are basically relearning how to work together. one of the things that is happening in this process is that you have sort of a return to regular order.

you have two budget chairs meeting. that is an important part of the process. has been a long time since the budgeteers have been able to work out a budget, and this is sort of what is unfolding a little bit. this is almost learning to crawl before you can walk again. deadline inr february, another debt ceiling shut out as possibly on the horizon. you mentioned adult decisions, what does the business roundtable they got the adult decisions on the debt ceiling? guest: there's nobody in our nation who believes that we should be defaulting, or talking about defaulting on our debt. i do not think republicans and democrats think it would be a good idea to do that. what you have is a hollow threat. at the end of the day, you have to give on it. host: this is what you describe as the imperfect hostage? guest: i did say that once.

-- ifffect, if you can't the hostage has to be taken care, and ultimately return, all you are doing is incurring a lot of cost will you care for your hostage. the issue is the spending. imperfect as the sequestration has been provided has had an good effect on bringing down the annual debts. it is highlighting further that the problem is structural long- term entitlement reform. the type of reform that ceos of businesses and roundtables have to think about. i saw it as a governor, and most of the governors in america have constitutional requirements to balance their budgets in both the short term and i think they're sensitive about longer- term implications. congress and the administration both needs to step up.

it is not won by the semantics both branches of government acting together. they have to communicate and compromise. if you want to talk to john engler about our phone lines are open, he is here to take your questions and comments. governor engler, we talk about the debt ceiling showdown, let's back it up a little bit and look to january where the current budget funding measure were would -- would run out. do you think it is possible to see another government shutdown after what we experienced? guest: it certainly is possible. there are all kinds of horrible and terrifying things that are possible.

it is not in the nations interest, first off. it is not good governance. i think what we will see, and what exists today is a commitment on the part of the leadership opposed -- of both parties to get something worked out. they of interest in saying look get this worked out. i think they will. how, what is involved, i think point withde the senator ryan murray, because of the constitutional responsibility is, they're working very diligently to put something together. they will have complaints, they have on -- them on the left of on the right, you'll never make anybody happy. they went to the constituencies that voted for them and made promises and commitments, and not all the roads are reconcilable one with the other. there'll always be people

unhappy. have you done any oft of study on the impact the government shutdown on the membership of the business roundtable? guest: it varies. the companies are so large, and they are very global. it has a couple of different impacts. the one that concerns the companies the most is the perception of competence that we do not have a government that can operate and make decisions very effectively. we just don't seem to be performing the functions of government very well. -- there are exceptions, certainly. just acrosslly went the board were productions -- reductions, because you got good with bad. it is much better to be discerning, maybe eliminate a function completely commendable down on the big you think is working. that is exactly who -- ceos who

run these businesses do. they shut down a nonperforming unit in order to invest in something where there's going to be future success, where there could be a revenue growth and ultimately investment. what we have as a country is a need to have a lot more investment. we need to have a very positive environment. where to position where the united states should actually be leading a global recovery instead of living along every quarter and two percent growth. if you look at the trend of it is really 1.5 to two points below what we had. host: governor engler is here to take your questions and comments. on twitter -- guest: we do lobby the tea

party, we lobby democrats and republicans. that is exactly what we did going all the way back to 2011 when this all surfaced. at the time, look, you will have to do a budget deal, and there is going to have to be revenue on the table, and spending reductions in a multiple of revenues. we had everybody unhappy at that time because we had one group that that i do not want to cut a dime, i want to spend a lot more dimes, and the other side said we do not want a dime to be spent until we cut a bunch. process.essy the country is probably pretty at all off you look the survey data, it is 50-50. everything, there are all

kinds of positions that people spell out. that is the job of somebody who gets elected, you have to sort this through and make decisions. what you cannot do is be paralyzed, say it is too hard and i cannot decide. host: john was elected the governor of mission -- michigan, from 1991 to 2003. chris is from up from emory florida -- anna maria, florida. listening, more i am the more distressed i get. this is my first time calling into a show. let me tell you right at the top of the list is one more person referring to entitlements. if you walk into a store and you pay for a product, you're not entitled to take it away from you -- with you.

get entitledeople to social security and medicare that they pay for. it is not a four letter word. it was intended to be a trust fund, it should have been cap in a trust fund. congress has been rating that trust fund for decades. i don't know that much of the american public actually knows that. if you run the numbers, we wouldn't be this broke with social security or medicare if the trust fund had not been spent on everything but. host: ellen on twitter seems like they would agree with you -- governor engler? guest: entitlements is almost a here, but it represents the promises of future benefits for americans both retirees who have

been required to pay into this will security system, and that is a trust fund, and that has been rated, there's no question that moneys that have been set aside have been used on a cash basis for other things. but the obligation is still there. there would still be a pretty significant obligation that is copyable and what we have done as the population gets older, like a pension system, you have fewer and fewer people paying into bed more and more people drawing out. what are the things that they struggle with is that they use what every economist would say is an imprecise measure of a cost of living adjustment to social security. the president and by the -- recommended fixing that, that cuts come from his own party and some of the republican party. it is as hard thing that should -- simplyubly because

because of the accurate math. that fix is pretty easy and straightforward. didthing that the caller not mention, but needs to be brought to the table is that when social security was set up, sort of the demographic analysis at the time, you got money for later in life. the life expectancy at the time was about the time when the benefits started. today that is 20 years longer, yet we did not change the system to account for that. that resulted in more demand for what is turning out to be an inadequate amount of money set aside. the real cost is in the health- care care system in the medicare system and those cost. and again, nobody foresaw what those costs would be, nobody foresaw at the

time the system was being set up how long people would live. how much care would be needed in the last six months or last year of life. we promised to pay for those cost, but we did not set aside the money to pay for the promises. this is no different in some , their different rogue rims, and different histories. whole day for the the city, and then find themselves in bankruptcies because the funds that were supposed to be there are not. they have a unfunded liability. the question is, the city does not have the money, and in detroit you do not -- you cannot rent money, and you have taxes at the highest levels. the statencome from or the federal government, and that is not very likely or very easy.

how do you pay the benefits? what couldctly happen some day, and that is why people say look, long-term, the balance sheet needs to be worked on. er that saidet these are promises, we need to be able to write those checks. your john engler taking calls and questions on a number of subjects this morning, including the ongoing budget negotiations on capitol hill, fiscal outlook on capitol hill and around the country. barry is up next on our line for democrats. caller: good morning. in your business roundtable, how many discussions do you guys have on the damage that these corporations have left on the country? i have been on one of these jobs that have been laid off, so i

know the impact. but what is the effect, and how much is fuzzily does the business world take for the six 2000 jobs -- 60,000 jobs leaving this country? what responsibly do you guys feel as a business roundtable? how can that stop? guest: that is a good question. that is a good point, i've been very concerned about -- just going back to 2000, the fortune 500 bodies that were headquartered here in the u.s., that is down to a quarter. we have had a decline in the number of major headquarters that are here. one reason we are so ardent about tax reform and a number of these other issues, is that committees are not governments. companies are not governments. iey are cannibals t --

counsel to shareholders and investment funds, and other retirement systems or mutual fund holders. they are trying to make a return , and as a result, they are investing in places all over the world. companies,of these and your selling consumer products about your than five percent of the world's people live in the united states, so 95% of the customers are around the world. if you go after those customers quickly make everything here and sell everything elsewhere? probably not. trade is always to way. is to have an advantage for so the government of your home country is sort of on your side, and says go out and take on the world. that happens in a lot of places around the world. one of the things that president obama's commission on jobs found is that one of the most hostile relationships between businesses and creators is here in the

united states. the first thing you have to do is take on your own government, and go on and take the other governments on. host: how does your group recommend changing the relationship? entity --think the the energy advantage in the united states is almost once-in- a-lifetime. here it is with all of the natural gas that we are finding, all of the unconventional recovery of oil. us bring -- let's bring in investment firms, let's get these plants permitted. let's build things the keystone pipeline. jobs that could be here, those are jobs that are immediately could be there. there are a lot of other plants that could be built, there are trade policies, i'd talked to where we ambassador and agreed on improvements facilitation's among nations.

we used to have trade surpluses and a lot of area -- and a lot areas, and that could be built back. bring this back to the united states, like some auto companies have done. his is a volatile and fluid situation, and i think if we compete better, we could also reform the tax code, we would immigration reform high on the list. we need talented entre reviewers. at the end of the day, we need to have a k-12 system that graduates everyone. no dropouts. they need to go on to college ready to take on the subjects, without needing remediation when they get there. host: if you want to talk about any of those issues that john engler just rot up, -- brought up, our phone lines are open. larry is on our independent line, from arizona. caller: thank you.

one question i have. we are $17 trillion in debt. that debt does not come from social security or medicaid. why not quit spending the $70 billion we spend on a couple of wars, and tax breaks, and everything else, and if i'm going to go in that, beyond social security and medicare? some of it does come in health care system, a lot of that that represents unfunded liabilities that are in the future. they're not do today -- due today. some of it represents other programs, but if you could look budgetannual ban old -- basis, we see the difference -- the deficits coming down. that is what sequestration has accomplished ra.

in my case, i was early like to see us successfully investing in more of a research investment and science. i think that is going to matter in the future. i would love to see us, the president the other day was talk about some of these agencies that do not work very well. let's reorganize the government and get rid of agencies that don't work. let's streamline. 5000, 6000 data centers. that technology is being used by company's all over the world, but especially u.s. headquartered companies but to prevent -- improve their productivity. in government, it seems weathered is operating a website, or just running the basic and researcher of the government, and ends up costing more. we ought to be economizing there. there are a lot of ways in which i believe we could manage the government more effectively. the $17 trillion the caller talk about -- talked about is putting every thing on the balance

sheet, and the alan she needs improvement. you know what, we are a country ought to get back to economic growth. that happens when we are investing, and when we're doing that jobs are being created. we have seven percent unemployment, scaled without much smaller workforce, and to be people in part-time jobs. host: you bring up the is this round tables suggestions for the group it. on twitter -- thet: i wasn't at roundtable in those days, it has only been around since the 70's. when was organize, the issues were trade and taxes. wanting again to think about how the u.s. and headquartered companies and how they could compete and win. his is a global competition today. the olympics for

jobs, economic limericks, who has the best environment, and what are we doing? look at all of the states today that are competing to talk to boeing because boeing has said we might look around the country for a new location to build the next generation aircraft. everyone has an idea as to why you should come to my state ursus this other state. that is happening among nations too. we do not see it as much here, because we do not choose to compete that way. i think we should. your inputt to get as a former michigan governor on this story. sharesernment sells gm what it is out of the car to business -- and is out of the car business.

you, was this a good deal for the united states? became a necessary deal given the precarious state of the date -- the economy at the time. this really overlapped to residents, -- two p it started in the bush administration and then continued on into the obama administration. they found themselves with very limited options. overin -- we tend to gloss the effect of rugged layering -- of regulatory up process about because the burden put on them first is the burdens faced by the competitors are much more. i'm not too going to suggest the auto industry did not create a lot of its own problems, i love people who watched it for years worried that there were a lot of --llenges that were being

were not being stepped up and faced. there was an attitude of no- cost, no rise to great to bear. convulsedt ultimately , and the confidence of the american public dropped. a today weut in half are back in the $60 million range. the retooled companies are making products today. back valleys sharply on quality. the new mustang that just was rolled out, everybody is excited about that. there are a lot of great products coming out of detroit. also, out of the years, there were a lot of, visions for detroit. the caller earlier talked about jobs and business loss of jobs. one thing is being overlooked, that they were not lost from another country, there were lost from detroit, to tennessee, from

detroit, to sarah caroline up -- to south carolina. happen, newrted to competitors were on the scene. host: former michigan governor john engler taking your comments this morning. talking about a number of issues including dental but it deals. here's the latest story room reuters. could produce a tuesday deal. we will go to ernie on the phone from bullhead city, arizona. caller: good morning. what you contribute into take care of people before this crisis, did you see this coming and what have you done to fix anything there?

i did -- host: did you contribute to some of detroit's rises, referring back to your time as governor? -- i am would think pretty proud of what we tried to do in the 1990's, and we could see it coming. we worked with the leadership of the city at the time to try to stabilize some of their --enues, and also to try to they were unbelievably overtaxed. at the time they were paying something like $66 million. reform of howjor we finance public education, and the biggest beneficiaries of that work properties in detroit. there were a whole series of decisions made, and i think you saw ultimately, and sadly, the playing out of one more recent

for 20eing sent to jail years. there was clearly corruption, and things going on that really impaired the ability of detroit's decision-makers. budgets right, we stepped in with the schools, that was a big contributor. you cannot have a healthy city americae in without healthy schools. families will do what is best for their children, and that is staying with the schools are not catastrophic. ander: as a governor, mayors, and city level stuff, i as a like to see him governor put in some leadership that would have rocked the city backup online. did actuallywe illuminates the detroit public

school board, but we left the control. history of local control, and it is only when you get to the point where leverage -- every last alternative is exhausted, they would have to put in. they were successful, and i give them a lot of credit, because they were able to go into the legislators sitting now in michigan, and put in better laws that we have on the books. we worked with the law that we had mobile we treaded to lurk -- we worked with the law, but we tried to work with the local officials. this was greater than the capacity to deal with, and an emergency matter was put in place. you could say that should have been done earlier, but even who thinke are people in detroit that bankruptcy is really not necessary. isn't there another way? , when you're ago

talking about the fiscal conditions, people do not believe it. it is a lot like washington today. we will calls on the program saying that there are no real problems but just raise task is -- raise taxes, or just this -- adjust this. we knew we had trouble there, but i wish we could have done more/ . it would have required taking the control away from the local officials, and i'm not sure that there were not a lot of berries that stood in the way. detroit by the got to the white where those barriers came down, and the governor had choice but to act. dissent,gh there is he'd probably have the majority of support in detroit where he will want support back on, and honest government.

host: we have a few minutes left in the segment of the washington journal, georgetown, texas on our republican line. caller: good morning. republic is already huge is a vintage in a government shutdown negotiation, and that was shown in the last round because they generally represent the earning class, and the democrats resent the spending and taking class. any time in the family, it is easy to be a vendor, and is hard to be on our -- a spender, and it is hard to be an earner. you're kind of rooting for another round of shutdowns to get off the problems the democrats have with big government health care, and

implement them that. how do you educate the public on these positions, because spending is easy, and this is the real problem in any shutdown negotiation. you can shutdown the administration. guest: the caller raises a good question. that is the never ending, almost circular debate in washington. spenders versus earners, spenders versus taxers. one of the things -- are caller was from georgetown, texas, but it is interesting to listen to some of the governors today. you have governor perry down in texas who has been successful, and talks a lot about his success in the texas job creation. and job attraction. there are companies that moved

to texas because the state does not have an income tax, because they are fiscally responsible the way they manage their affairs aired there are companies that move away from california because the regulatory process is too burdensome, the litigation environment is excessive. all of these things, you could see it playing out at a micro level, if you will, state to state. i think that is part of how you explain this. you just have to say about we are going to do more of what works, and stop doing those things that do not appear to work. there are object lessons. clearly, you would not want to run a city the way detroit has. experiment,doing an they are changing the direction with the mayor. will they stay the same, improve, or revert? we don't know. i think sometimes showing is the best teaching. host: we want to talk about your business roundtable survey of ceos. atcifically, looking ahead

what ceos see as the current cost pressures they sing the company's dash facing their companies. care costs came in third, behind labor costs and realtor costs. guest: the kind of companies that are in the business ran roundtable, we had 100% of our members offer health insurance for their boys, that is not the case everywhere in america. the same time, it was one of the best available. you want to be working for the auto company, or caterpillar if you want a great health plan in these communities where they are doing business. a concernat there is

about health care costs, but it comes in third because your kind of saying, looking ahead, what are you really worried about? they are worried about regulatory costs. we are in our 12 year, every haser we ask -- and it been pretty consistent as a look wasd -- one of the things i disappointed in was that gdp growth was pretty flat. they have productions next year of 2.2%. that was a little below where the consensus estimates are. the survey ticked up a little in in terms of hiring, and terms of capital spending. capital spending is really important. if you come back to this idea, if we're are going to invest, build new plants, build new pipeline, redo the electric grid , doing the kind of things that strengthen the country, those

are the kinds of jobs that are good jobs that we're seeking to have more of. and they lead to a lot of add-on investments. the thing about the round table member countries, we have massive supply change. when they are growing, and expanding, it has a major effect. when they are contracting, saving, in reverse. host: john, you're on with john engler, president of the business roundtable. caller: hello? taking the call. mr. engler, i guess i go back to the second caller making medicare and so inurity -- social security, that we pay into social security. the government is not borrowing money, it is not money that is

supposed to go for anything but our older years. you said there was a promise there, and the public might not see it kept. i look of the corporations who have gone overseas and left this country in a mess. tariffs placed on them, when they bring their money back here, billions and trillions. they are a major problem within the economy. guest: i am not sure what the caller would like. there are a lot of companies, in american business history, they phased out and went away. i do not think that is a good option. if you invest in one of these company, you wanted to be successful. i would agree with one observation you made for there is a lot of money that is overseas, because as i said

earlier, 95% of the people that buy diapers from procter & gamble, a lot of those newborn babies are not being born here. make pampers,g to and you're going to build a plant in south america, you're going to sell diapers there. 40% of jobs in ohio are dependent on that overseas trade. when that trade is going good, it is good for procter & gamble. every other nation in the world that we compete with does that. you pay the tax in brazil, and then he did bring the money home to germany if you're a german company. in the u.s. of a you pay your taxes in brazil, and that if you want to bring that money home, you may another tax again. that system of taxing is outmoded and it is $2 trillion

of foreign earnings offshore, and we ought to bring that home, and create an environment where that can be invested here. if nothing else, given out in dividends here, if the stock is by merrick and retirees, or pension funds. but inkes common sense, washington we are having a very vigorous debate about that. host: we appreciate you joining us on washington journal. up next, elisabeth rosenthal of "the new york times" her recent piece. >> afghan president in an interview earlier today is making -- accusing americans of making threats.

the president went on to say the united states is acting like a colonial power in trying to force him to sign ab lateral security agreement by the end of this year. u.s. and nato officials say the pact is critical to planning the militaries training and anti- terror missions. turning back to the budget talks, the wall street journal reports that today the congressional leaders looking for a budget deal are likely to increase the tax on airline fliers. $2.50 --cally play paid $2.50 in a september security fee. that help them fund the newly formed security administration. any budget deal will almost certainly increase that fee. to --ent obama's choice

appears before a committee investigating the are getting of tea party groups. nominated john to take over the irs in august. if confirmed by the senate, he would serve a five-year term. the hearing begins in 40 minutes , you can listen to it here on c-span radio. those are some of the latest headlines on c-span radio. a rare constant and american political life, if you look at congress in 1901, less than two percent of members came from working class backgrounds, got into politics, and eventually ended up in congress. today, buses -- this is one thing that has not really changed.

lots of parts of the political process have changed, broadcasting news, big money in politics, the decline of unions, and while all of this is happening, one of the constants during the last hundred years or so is that working class people are not getting elected to political office. >> does it matter that there is a socioeconomic disparity between elected officials and the citizens they represent? in january, in depth, with radio talkshow host mark levin, he will take your questions for three hours. all part of booktv weekend. your favoritew books of 2013. go to booktv.org, and click on

the chat room. >> washington journal continues. elisabeth rosenthal is a former er doctor who now works as a correspondent for the new york times, and he is -- she is piece abouthor of a hospital prices. she will be discussing that article with us on the last 45 minutes of washington journal. ms. rosenthal, the article was about the injuriously opaque world of hospital charges. give us an idea of how much these charges are. guest: there are reason it estimates that 40% of replacement -- of inflation has been from of care charges. if we want to control spending, we have to deal with it. inner peace you talked about some of the experiences that will had him going to the hospital, and what they were charged for. how do hospitals determine their

prices for different services? they basically price what they want, and what they can. if you're a hospital that has a big market share, or you're a brand name in a certain city, you can charge what you want. the bill goes to the insurer first of all, if the person is insured, people may look at it $3000 fort -- wow, stitches, that seems outrageous. it is not so people have to deal with copayments or coinsurance that they get upset. a lot of people do not pay for the majority of their health care. orla roche whot you interviewed for this article. guest: she was two years old,

and did not have much to say about it, but the mom said they were on vacation in san francisco. -- there about just toddler fell off the couch and hit her head. you're not going to call around and look for a good deal, they went to the er. they would to a good hospital and a nice part of san francisco, and he put some glue in the wound, put a big bandage around her head, put a sticker on it, and they left happy. the nurses and doctors were really nice, and they were good. until, they saw the bill, close to $2000. i think the reason we're hearing about this more more is because like many americans, they are facing rising deductibles and co-pays. they were stuck with about half

that bill for something that was really minor. host: you say stuck with half that bill, talk about the role that insurance companies play between what hospitals charge them and what you end up paying. sayt: hospitals always those prices look ridiculous, but the insurers will negotiate with us in and we end up settling for lasess. insurers have contracted rates with hospitals. they say we will pay 70% of charges. so they say the reasonable price is $1600. but then you have to look at how the insurance works for the patient. and their insureds may say ok, you pay 20% of that, or you pay the first thousand dollars. negotiated rate is

still high, and patients can face significant out-of-pocket cost. the people who are worse off in this other people who have no insurance, or her war paying for themselves because they do not an insurer to even reduce bill.i bill -- high host: california medical center, you have a mockup of what they charged. codeine, they priced $36.78, the market was much less. what do they say about these markups? guest: every hospital will say that we do all of these

important things for the community that we do not get, compensated for. we do things for the community of and these people do not have insurance, so we have to do a lot of cost shifting. there is really no science in this. how much cost shifting really goes on? what is the right amount to move to pay for medicare? we looked at variations within the u.s., and you realized that if a really strong academic hospital can do for half that price but that maybe everyone should be able to do it for half that price. at some look overseas of the high quality european s, and care companie they're doing it for sometimes a quarter to a fifth, to attend even of the price we are paying. if they are doing it that way, why aren't we?

what is the rubble with the way we are delivering health care? host: we want to hear from our viewers on this subject. we want to hear your experiences at the hospital, what you were charged for hospital care, what were unexpected to you? .ur phone lines are open we will also take your comments twfacebook and letter -- itter. is there anybody in the federal government or state government in charge of regulating these costs to ensure that people do not get gouged for some of these charges? sett: medicare does inpatient rates.

and medicaid. you will hear a lot of complaining from hospitals that to those do not cover the real cost b. but what is the real cost of running the hospital? that is what we have to ask. ofody factors in the cost medicine, which is a big burden for the patient. there are a few parts of the federal government that do this, but i would say that one way that we really differ from and countryrom every other in the world ways that we do not have a national mechanism for price regulation and that is putting us at a great visit disadvantagest -- for cost regulation. if you had the, power of medicare quality that all government to say every other country does this, and

we're not pay more than this for this new drug, you would get a much better price. and the baes this, tends to get much better prices on medicine than the rest of the country. ross john is up first from town, new hampshire, on art line for independents. you're on with elisabeth rosenthal. caller: i have been retired for about 10 years. -- i have been in the hospital three times over the past 10 years. what i've run into now is the hospitals charge a $250 process the to let you go. saysp of that, the doctor you're going on tomorrow come a and you do not get released

until after 11:00 a.m., like the hotels. you have to be out of the room by love and :00 a.m., or you will be charged again. that is double dipping as far as i am concerned. be discharge,can let them be discharged. but they're trying to double it up. yes, i have seen a lot of what one consultant who commented on the it's called "strategic billing" hospitals consulting firms saying how can we make more do.y from what we that's distressing to a lot of patients and doctors. is a lot of -- i spoke to one man last night who was to an y ambulance

emergency room at trauma even though he didn't have very serious trauma. was in a minor crash and his back hurt. e.r. by blast set trauma $10,000 activation fee. what's that about? f you call european hospital and say what's your trauma activation fee? talkinggo, what are you about? we don't know what that means even. like the here is discharge fee. what's that for? a twitt we want to hear from our viewers experiences and your hospital bill. elizabeth rosenthal, question about the argument that these mark-ups that we've been talking about are needed to charity case the

that's come in through the door where they don't get paid. that is k some of valid. one thing that the affordable will do once eory everyone has the availability of then hospitals presumably will do less what charity care. as a result their payments are the d to decrease over coming years. but you know when you hear omething like they charge $4,500 and took $800, well you know, hospitals aren't doing that much charity care. new england journal looked and w much they are doing with 7.5% or so. that includes -- that's not just free care. money lost by treating for ow cost they get

treating medicaid patients. think there are a lot of accountants d act who say fine, let's have a andonal system for doing it be clear and deal with this in a way.nal how you can remodel a kitchen if going to act said i'm charge you $20,000 but in the end it took $4,000. you can't run a market-based system, which is what we're way. g to do in that >> some of these hospitals are getting tax-exempt status for charity cases. how much money are we talking in tax exemptions? >> it's hard to know for any individual hospital because you remember they don't pay real estate tax. payroll tax and issue

tax free bonds. -- there an estimate was an estimate in about ten valueago that the overall of those tax exemptions was something like $12 billion. it's a lot of money. there are ways they're being most sated already and hospitals in the u.s. as you know are non-profit. clara is up next for republicans. you're on with elizabeth rosenthal. >> good morning. unfortunately i have a lot of experience. i have a son who has had cancer our times and my husband has been in and out of the hospital 8 or 9 times in the last two years. i believe that some of these hospitals for lack of a better in ka hoots with home own hcare if they don't their own home healthcare departments and a lot of the for boomers are opting

in-home care rather than going to rehab services. quality l you that the of care in a home health service sending hospitals are these patients home to is not class.first some of the people that have been in my home, i don't even think that they have any medical experience at all. we had a very horrible story i won't go into. hospitals t the should present you with a bill as soon as you check out. everything is on bar code. there is no reason they can't give you at least an estimated it's going to cost you when you check out just like when her gentleman said motel. in a >> elizabeth rosenthal, i'll let you jump in. see and i think what we what you're referring to is more and more of hospital care. right? y fragmented,

so there's a lot that's utsourced and it's hospital doesn't dough its own home healthcare so there is another profit that is doing that. the dialysis may be outsourced for example. you go to an emergency room in most cases now, the emergency separate rs are a bill. they're doing their own billing. we can'ttals will say, provide a bill for you because x, y and z sourced and what the hospital bill is of your care.art i think that's really for patients with an bill.y to a hotel you'll have to wait for the outside contractor for using the club and wait for another bill from housekeeping because that's not something that is normal charge.

it's really, really problematic we saide want people as we do to be better consumers of maintain so we can our market-based system, there's ot to be more price transparency. i would say not even right when you leave the hospital but how before you check in? how about having price lists could look at and say, you know, oh skpoe doctors, when they refer you, have no idea what you'll be charged. internists would look at a few hospitals and say, this one is much better value and and i would there be fine with that. >> what would your ecommendation be for people in an emergency situation? how you can shop around for a ospital if you're in an emergency situation? >> well, you can't and you shouldn't have to, right? all, an ambulance will take you where they want to take you more than where you want to based on your

injury and sometimes based on it's ess relationships so not that straightforward. that i this sounds crazy think people should have to do his, but i would know which emergency rooms and which hospitals are in your network so you know where to go. crazy. one of the patients in the story on e.r. care described she was soccer game and got knocked out cold unconscious. came to a friend drove her to the emergency room. on the way, she was googling on figure out which was in network. they went to the one that was in network. as i said in the story, she was because at the in-network hospital there was a egotiated rate that was much better. it's crazy that people have to do that. prices are very hard to -- ctual prices are very hard to find in advance. and i should kind of kudos to california.

went there for this story is unlike most states, unlike i think all other states, california requires publish their charge masters, their master price list. in a place that they're very easy to find. they tend to be hundreds of pages of entries like 3798 for a tylenol with codeine. theory they're out there. now i guess the next challenge good consumers those price master price lists have to be transformed into that an ordinary human being could read in a reasonable amount of time. to wisconsin now and on our line for democrats nor ran is waiting. you're on with elizabeth rosenthal of the new york times. caller: good morning. yes. program she was

fares g of the hospital and so forth. the only hospital fare i've seen they're out s when trying to get donations for that's a good thing, ut you never see our hospitals around here doing a hospital air to try raise any kind of cash or anything for any kind of donations. hospital two days and 16 grand and they did 36 for exactly n me the same thing. negotiated that down. this is ridiculous. $16,000 for two days. actually a day and a half. got out. >> how long did it take to you negotiate that down and what strategies when were you doing that negotiation? caller: well, i walked in and i told the doctor,

the attending doctor, i said i this.t going to pay i said it was ridiculous and it was outrageous. went to the office and had a chat with the representative there and i said, a day and a half of i had a slight case pneumonia. an gave me medication and i.v. one shot and there was no clotting of the blood; okay, and they just start drawing blood numerous times they kept blood. come to find out it was for the same thing. they just wanted to check my blood, check my blood. >> thank you for sharing your experience from wisconsin. rosenthal, let you comment on norman's experience. if he has'm wondering

insurance. i think it's really good if eople with insurance are starting to negotiate these bills and say this is outrageous. one thing that i would comment n is for many hospitals things like blood tests and x-rays they are the money makers. the booze in a restaurant. items their big mark-up and of course you're in a hospital and a doctor says you taken.ave to your blood you're not a purchaser really. you don't have a choice. and you don't know how much it's going to cost. and what you see is often very tests marked up that a national lab would do for billed at hundreds of dollars. ne thing that i love most lab machines do the basic electrolyte panels. it's auto mated and all done at once. as an automated thing.

ut a lot of hospitals pick out each of the items and charge separately. so $69 for the chloride and we unbundling. it's a strategy for making more money. for mes on twitter calls emergency room reviews just like restaurants. katherine's up next from democrats.for katherine, good morning. caller: good morning. that osenthal, i read united health insurance is buying physician groups all over the country. they're dropping many of those that ians in that network they buy from their network and united ering is how is how areng from this and patients and doctors suffering from this? >> we see this in a lot of the

country. the big game before has been negotiation between hospitals insurers for rates. and the doctors have kind of been in the middle. but now what we're seeing more nd more is that hospitals or insurers are basically aligning with doctors practices because primary sourcehe of business. i think what's unfortunate for patients in the end with these of arrangements is that almost these big monopolies in some parts of the have tremendous control over price and how medicine is practiced, you know, order more tests, get referred to this guy in our group rather than this other guy who may be cheaper and better on outside. one group i hear a lot from eople who are really, really distressed are primary care this big ers who in

kind of commodification of lotthcare they don't have a of market power. they're really struggling they have no bargaining power. they have to take whatever rates they get. these large hospital groups inate economies of scale and some ways help lower prices? are you seeing that? >> sure if they want to they can. i think it depends what your in taking on these physician practices f your goal make a seamless system that can happen. hmo like kaiser where everyone is on salary and same system it's very efficient. n a lot of these cases the doctors aren't being put on salary so the private incentive but they're allying more as a business strategy so

insurers can control more of the market. one of the reasons california able c medical center was to charge these high charges in has rancisco is it tremendous power in northern california to a point where it's now with some d lawsuits about its market power and practices. from id's up next richmond, verge kwraeupb on our independence. good morning to you. caller: good morning. heard several things, but i think e things that pre dominates is the ability to negotiate i've been told by several people that because of rates that the insurance companies get, that cannot thendividual go back to the hospital and say, you know, look, you billed me an excessively for this ticker procedure or something and then yourself.

i heard the previous caller ndicate that he was able to do that and i think that if people lineable to do that on a byline basis then you would have what i think you're market-based s a supply and demand for medical practice. where it's is really vignette. little my you grandfather in 1960 had a heart attack. money and poor as dirt and lived in trailer and had no money. they took him in in georgia and took him into the hospital, treated him. was in the hospital for almost three weeks. with them ed a bill $3,500.me out to about he actually worked with some of the physicians. layer.a brick

he laid brick for them and and paid iteir home off. but for some reason we have gone into this concept that we want toisolate people from having worry about that sort of thing. back to hat if we went something like that where eople -- whether it was him bartering his work or simply negotiating a fairer price for items rather than being illed for items or things that did not happen. anyway, i think that's all i have to say. >> thanks for telling your story. elizabeth rosenthal. > you know, there is very variable ability and room for bill.ts to where some bizarre stands you can do a lot and some stands are really fixed on price. component where if

you have insurance and the insurance set a negotiated rate the patient co-pay is supposed to be set because the ideas of is it's that co-pay that makes you price sensitive. pharmacy saysl or okay our negotiated rate is $100 pay 20 re supposed to but we'll forgive your componen you copay, not legal. although there are a lot of ways are pharmaceutical firms getting around providing co-pay coupons. part of the patient copayment is make people price conscience. hen the starting point of prices is so high now and the are er negotiated rates high, you can understand why eople want to negotiate further. because if i'm left with -- as story were, he visit for a minor e.r.

that seems outrage to us me and i don't have the money to pay do it and i'm outraged maybe i have the money but i'm kind of morally outraged it should cost so much. so, i do tell people that they should try and negotiate but lot of hospitals won't go there and you see a lot of people facing term ollections and long payment plans to pay for things because they don't negotiate and negotiate.y can't the people who can are people who don't have insure answer. one guy last night who was uninsured and he got a minor in an thing emergency room for $3,000 and -- he said, i'm just not gonna pay it. pay you and hell could work something out. ronically if you're uninsured you have more room to negotiate because in theory if you're has done ur insurance that negotiation for you. but often they're not good negotiators.

charity question of on twitter itals, due to immigrants using the e.r. in primary care. did this cause the increase in revenue?ecover >> every hospital will tell that you and that's what they do. emergency rooms take everyone regard to ability to pay. right thing to do. when they say charity care don't be fooled because many are being by bill d pursued collectors. hospitals won't collect a lot on have no money, so don't make a lot. they are losing money on that. once obamacare is

fully deployed, a lot more people will have insurance. amount should go down. economists that that alone doesn't go far to explain the high bills we see. several callers waiting to talk to you. we'll try to run through them. corpus christi, texas for republicans. you're on with elizabeth rosenthal. caller: going morning. how y'all doing this morning. >> good. i want to had. have my own medical issues, but something that i found out, when the hospital is providing with this enormous invoice, round ay $40,000 for numbers. and then your pre negotiated cost through your healthcare place of ets you to a $10,000. the reason one of the main go ons the hospital has to

so high they know that they're not getting that money. implication with it. they take the $30,000, the difference between what they're and what they're billing and call it a loss. arbitrary is just an made uhm number to generate a big loss for the hospital. i do understand most of them on a non-profit status from a cp technique a's perspective and that's why they inflate the bill so drastically. >> elizabeth rosenthal. >> yeah there, are a lot of -- in a way. problem there is a lot of motivations to levels that bill to everyone knows are not realistic. he hospital executives will tell you, we never expect to get it. one of them is you can that's the - if right word -- you have this big hunk of care you can call charity care for some tax purposes. ou can't do that with people

who have insurance but you can do write-offs for medicaid that way. the other thing is a lot of stipulate ontracts will pay -- the bargain rates will pay arrange is 60% of charges. how do you make more money? you say the charges are higher. incentives are to do this. spoke to one health economist who said we get the charges we expect given the incentives and we won't any other is in market we deal with and so icularly not one that's vital. > john on twitter says -- up next from morgantown, north carolina. good morning. caller: good morning. glad that you're having this talk here regarding the price in the hospitals. recently -- as a matter of

fact i'm recovering from an accident, farm accident where i bone crushed and it happened on saturday was taken in and kept for three days without not even octor and given drink of water until they in to ir trauma doctor deal with my injury. at that time he came in and done a surgery. kept another day and a half and left go and billed for five days. the first three they never done single thing. i laid in a bed. $71,000.ed me when i got to looking into the bill they were charging $35 walked intohe nurse the room. and after the surgery any pain i got if it was as much as $30 to $50 for a pill $100njection would be over and this whole bill was just ludicrous. this was no way justify

and they're doing it with everyone and the gentleman that the d and talked about false number, that's exactly true. industry does the same thing. hey say, well, we want to meet this demand. if they don't meet it it's an abitrary number, they call it loss. >> did you try to negotiate your bill at all after you left the hospital? caller: i'm still trying to etermine how much of it that i'm going to actually pay because i may go to jail before paying it. am about it.set i i worked in law enforcement and hard worki een a itizen and paid my bills and taxes but i'm upset to stand the line and go to jail over it if i have to. that wrong. >> elizabeth rosenthal, give you a chance to comment. yeah, i know this reaction from a number of people now that outraged about this bill that -- let them come after me do what they want

to my credit score. as this gentleman said, i'm to jail.go $71,000 for a farm injury, money.a lot of you look at the bills and that's where people get really upset they're hey see what being charged for. not being t about seen for a few days traditionally we americans like it's l like the reason expensive is because we have the world.edical care in the there are great hospitals in the u.s. but there are great qualitys doing the same of care in other countries for a fraction of the cost. repeatedly have shown that high prices do not give us better care. am really thrilled, distressed to you as a person to have do deal with this $71,000 bill. i don't know what you're gonna do. insurance that covers some of it or if you're some ofut of pocket for

it. but one thing i'm glad about as a country people are starting to bills.t these it's gotten to a point where people are looking at them and take , i am not going to this anymore. i don't think this is democrats, republican or independent. are really out raged. the solutions may be different a democrat, independent or republican but universal.e is that's why this series has gotten more comments than any series in the history of the new york times. prices store, a stitch tops $500. we'll get one more caller. it's paula from pennsylvania. you're on with elizabeth rosenthal. caller: thank you for taking my call first of all. of those people who is trying to negotiate my bill. bill but my ly my husband's. e was in the hospital for two

days being detoxified from abuse. and drug and they sent us a bill for and then when i said that i was paying it myself, they egotiated -- well, automatically dropped it down to $17,000. two days and or ust got blood tests and one x-ray and that was it. drugs of course like tylenol, this and that. not expensive drugs. do wondering how the heck -- these guys to be reasonable? i don't want to cheat them but i cheated either. >> elizabeth rosenthal, the last 30 seconds we have here. >> yeah, i think this is a important point. hospitals say they do a lot of charity care, pre care, but look at this.

a bill for two days for $26. pay and says i can't they say, okay, then $17,000. redick us l a really amount for two days of care, i think. we need a national discussion what's reasonable in terms prices a. and we need to get to better place, because people are really suffering for really basic care. this is not a rare cancer. common medical experience that millions of people are going to need each year. elizabeth check out nytimes.com work at nyt llow her on twitter at & rosenthal. >> thanks for having me. >> that will be it for our show today. earlier this morning, president obama was at a memorial service in